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Subject: True wages of sin, Ransom, Jesus' paying of the p
Replies: 27 Views: 405

purest1 30.01.12 - 08:38pm
What's the nature of the penalty for sin? And if we christians continue claiming that Jesus 'took our place' by suffering the punishment we deserved, how do we answer- what sort of punishment does God give for sin? * +

purest1 30.01.12 - 08:39pm
Incomplete title should finish ... Paying of the price. * +

purest1 30.01.12 - 08:44pm
I've run into this issue too often in the forum and I see an incoherrence in the idea of believing Jesus 'paid the price sin merits' and then denying that the punishment for sin is that which Jesus paid- death. How can these two views be reconciled? Or perhaps... Jesus did mean to bear our punishment but ended up not bearing it? * +

purest1 30.01.12 - 08:56pm
1 Tim 2:6 describes how Jesus offered himself as a ransom or corresponding price. This means whatever Jesus sacrificed was what we'd lose left on our own. Whatever punishment Jesus suffered was the punishment we're saved from, the punishment we were all inevitably going to get. Accepting this ransom idea and accepting that Jesus didn't save us from actual death is a contradiction and both premises can't equally be true. * +

purest1 30.01.12 - 09:04pm
If Jesus died so we don't have to die, why do we still die? That's an issue for later consideration but for the moment I just wish to raise the eternal separation in hell versus actual death disagreement and explain why I believe the former to be incoherrent with other beliefs held by its proponents. * +

purest1 30.01.12 - 09:08pm
Its a universally accepted idea among all christians that The wages of sin is 'death', just like God told Adam, 'The day you eat of this particular fruit you will surely die.' The soul that sins, it shall die Ezekiel 18:4. Many prefer to think of 'death' when described as penalty for sin as allegorical or metaphorical... Spiritual death, and not actual death. But is that so? What does internal evidence show? * +

purest1 30.01.12 - 09:19pm
Accepting premise 1 will have ramifications on Jesus 'taking our place' and on the ultimate fate of the wicked. Its when premise 1 is accepted that its possible to accept the orthodox claim that both the righteous and the wicked will have eternal life, the only difference being the location where they spend it. But then we have to ask, did Jesus bear our punishment by being 'eternally separated from God in hell'? If not how could 'death' mean what this position says it means? * +

purest1 30.01.12 - 09:50pm
This whole sacrifice thing was preceded by Yom Kippur, Day of atonement. Jesus is the permanent replacement of the two lambs of Yom Kippur. How was atonement made on Yom Kippur. Were the lambs put to 'spiritual death'? Actually they were both put to an actual death- one instantly and the other sent into the desert to die. If we accept old testament types, already this hints faintly at the kind of 'death' Jesus would die. Unless otherwise this is clearly actual death. For many sins in the OT * +

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